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TrailHunter said:
Not even close to the same issue. The P320's are firing with NO trigger pull at all. The Striker is slipping off the Sear. And to make it worse the firing pin is at full compression. It's a shit design and they know it.
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I posted that in response to the video posted in this thread a couple of days ago with the screw pushing the trigger back 1mm and then the guy jerking the slide around to cause a discharge. Seems to me this is the same thing but with a different gun.
 
TrailHunter said:
The idea of the screw was to engage the trigger about 1mm and take his finger out of the equation so no ones doubts it... it also simulates a possible worn out trigger spring or maybe the trigger being out of spec. It's insane that it would fire with that little of a trigger pull... most pull the trigger to the "wall" then fire the first shot... That in itself can be deadly with a 320. I think his test clearly shows how that gun is a POS.
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How is what you wrote above not equally applicable to a brand new, out of the box glock that fired with the exact same rearward travel on the trigger?
 
Sharkey said:
I posted that in response to the video posted in this thread a couple of days ago with the screw pushing the trigger back 1mm and then the guy jerking the slide around to cause a discharge. Seems to me this is the same thing but with a different gun.
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Sharkey said:
How is what you wrote above not equally applicable to a brand new, out of the box glock that fired with the exact same rearward travel on the trigger?
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I get it.. I tried it with all 3 of my Glocks when I saw the video... Had to pull the trigger so close to a full trigger pull, I couldn't tell if it was a full pull or not. Glocks aren't going off in the holster with ZERO Pull. If some SIGs can go off with no pull... then they can go off with a slight pull to the Wall. Also in that video.. look how close the trigger is to a full pull... and when he grabs the slide he moves the whole frame.. like its simply pulling the trigger just a bit more to a full pull.... It's a bullshit video.
 
TrailHunter said:
I get it.. I tried it with all 3 of my Glocks when I saw the video... Had to pull the trigger so close to a full trigger pull, I couldn't tell if it was a full pull or not. Glocks aren't going off in the holster with ZERO Pull. If some SIGs can go off with no pull... then they can go off with a slight pull to the Wall. Also in that video.. look how close the trigger is to a full pull... and when he grabs the slide he moves the whole frame.. like its simply pulling the trigger just a bit more to a full pull.... It's a bullshit video.
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Totally, that trigger is already, well, triggered. I assume any SA would do the same. The guy in the video is making something out of nothing.
 
Sharkey said:

Well that’s interesting.
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TrailHunter said:
Not even close to the same issue. The P320's are firing with NO trigger pull at all. The Striker is slipping off the Sear. And to make it worse the firing pin is at full compression. It's a shit design and they know it.
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Lol, Trailhunter keeps answering what I want to say before I get a chance to...

One thing that seems to be the common denominator is the sloppiness of the slide and frame. I'm not a gunsmith or expert but that seems like that would work itself into being an issue if the whole system depends on the striker/sear interface. Thats where I'd be spending my money on manufacturing tolerances. I went and checked all my semi autos and none of them are sloppy at all.

As far as continuing to being on the market still, I've never seen a company dig in on a "potential" deadly defect like this ever come out on top by continuing to say nothing to see here. Even if they are proven correct, they're getting trashed in the public opinion court. This will be interesting to see how they end up in this deal.
 
Sig is for sure all in and it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

That said, as someone who has just a bit of experience in the world of burdens off proof, someone is going to have to do a much better job of showing a design flaw leading to a readily repeatable AD…without any input on trigger…before there is ever going to be widespread liability.
 
Honest questions. Did the military and other groups test the P320 before adopting? How rigorous are those tests? Is it a “cool, shiny new penny and they will give us the best deal” kind of thing? Or, is it actual real world, put it through its paces kind of testing?

Why is it not a fair question to ask, if the design itself is so flawed, why haven’t exponentially more AD situations occurred and why is it so hard to repeatedly prove?

I just played around with my unloaded 320 again and tried to replicate the video. First, I have nowhere near the kind of slide slop that either the 320 or the glock has in those videos. Second, I can pull my OEM trigger all the way back to the just before the break, hit the crap out of the slide, and nothing happens.
 
This discussion is pretty addicting to follow…

Sharkey said:
I just played around with my unloaded 320 again and tried to replicate the video. First, I have nowhere near the kind of slide slop that either the 320 or the glock has in those videos. Second, I can pull my OEM trigger all the way back to the just before the break, hit the crap out of the slide, and nothing happens.
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This makes me wonder if it’s a QC issue. Most P320s are good, but some are defective? Wonder if there have been mechanical assessments of the specific guns in these AD incidents…

If I were Sig, this is what I would be hanging my hat on. QC a measurable problem that has a solution.

The P320 accidental discharges are not nothing…
 
A coworker of mine is good friends with a competitive shooter. That competitive shooter watched a friend in competition shoot himself with a P320. It was a ND, not an AD.

Guy had his finger on the trigger, went to re-holster, and his finger got caught on his shirt causing a trigger pull. Round went completely through his thigh and stopped in his calf (interestingly, the round never flattened out…I have seen the photo of the bloody round in the cup at the hospital). This event happened in June of 2024 and the particular range banned P320’s as a result.

Again, I have no idea if there is actually something wrong with the P320. What I do know though is it is not uncommon for people to conflate correlation with causation when something bad happens.
 
Ddays said:
Another component is the social media whoring dogpile that is created with every controversy - real or imagined. Some of these "problem revealed" videos are a joke
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100% And trying to figure out what is truth is not that easy. Personally, I want to know if the gun is unsafe. Again, that is a much different question than is it less safe than some other design. A gun that fires without trigger interaction is unsafe to me. A gun that fires with trigger interaction is, well, a gun.

The acceptable amount and type of trigger interaction required to fire probably varies from person to person. As discussed in this thread already, some people like feather light 1-2lb triggers. Good for them. I personally think those triggers are far less safe than heavier trigger sets. Does that make them “unsafe”? Not necessarily.

From a likelihood of accidental discharge perspective, isn’t a traditional hammer DAO far less likely to have an issue than a modern striker-fired system where racking the slide preps the firing mechanics?
 
Start this video at 6:20... It's a good comparison of Glock vs P320 Saftey Mechanisms.
A couple points he makes that I think are important:

1. Sig Safeties are 100% reliant on 2 small springs.
2. The Glock safety plunger spring is more robust, simpler design and the rear trigger housing design prevents the Sear from moving out of the way until the trigger is pulled.
2. Glock is more "Double Action" in that pulling the trigger retracts the firing pin completing the full tension.
3. P320 is more of a "Single Action" in that the Firing Pin is always in FULL Tension and held by the Sear.



In my opinion... The combination of small parts, small springs, bad tolerances, slide slop, and Full Firing Pin Tension is the issue. If that Firing pin has 100% pressure on that sear and the springs are weak enough, it could walk off the Sear over time.... simply being in a holster where the slide and frame are shifting around causing micro movements and walking the Sear down... maybe the safety block spring is weak, or gunked up, maybe the sear spring is shot, maybe the Firing Pin Pressure is preventing the Sear from staying up and its walking off, maybe the slide slop is letting these parts shift... maybe weak springs aren't allowing full sear engagement as the gun cycles and the spring just doesn't have the strength to overcome the firing pin pressure against the sear. I think the P320 is over complicated all to achieve a smooth "Single Action" feel on the trigger... and poorly executed.


Here is a good video to Nerd out on how the P320 Safety Mechanisms functions. Watch to the end.


 
Sharkey said:
Honest questions. Did the military and other groups test the P320 before adopting? How rigorous are those tests? Is it a “cool, shiny new penny and they will give us the best deal” kind of thing? Or, is it actual real world, put it through its paces kind of testing?
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When the tested the Glock it fired at a 100 percent rate with no failures but the Sig still beat it with a hundred and ten percent so govt said that’s the one we want.
The reality is it came down to money. The Glock was ay more expensive than the Sig and the Barretta refit was cheapest but again govt contracting doesn’t make sense.
 
I'd be curious to know, but the info will never come out, how many of the Sig's that had an AD were tinkered with to make them smoother.

We all know people that will take files and sandpaper to various parts of the assembly to make things smoother.

Just a touch out of tolerance and BANG.
 
kevman65 said:
I'd be curious to know, but the info will never come out, how many of the Sig's that had an AD were tinkered with to make them smoother.

We all know people that will take files and sandpaper to various parts of the assembly to make things smoother.

Just a touch out of tolerance and BANG.
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There is no question that a fair amount of people change springs, trigger bars, put in triggers with adjustable screws to eat up a lot of the pre-break trigger throw, etc.

I don’t know if any of the claimed AD’s involved modified FCUs. But, if they did, it would almost certainly provide an absolute defense against liability for Sig.
 
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